Episode #3: Project Programming for Peacebuilding

Rabia Nusrat is one hardcore Program Manager in the aid and development sector. And she’s our guest on this episode. Rabia has been a driving force behind women’s empowerment projects in Afghanistan, education projects in Pakistan, peacebuilding in Sri Lanka and much, much more. Operating out of the heart of Kabul for several years and with more than 15 years in the field, Rabia has a wealth of experience. Listen as she shares on-the-ground realities of running projects in extreme environments.

Information about this episode and other industry news and insight can be found here on our blog, the Trubshaw Tribune. If you'd like to be kept up to date about future episodes, please subscribe to our newsletter.

Audio Transcription

[00:00:14] Sean: Today I have the pleasure of chatting to Rabia Nusrat. Ostensibly, our topic is peace building in conflict areas, but we cover a lot of ground in this hard-hitting reflection on running projects in extreme environments. We see that you really don't need to be a special forces soldier to achieve your mission in places like Kabul. Rabia welcome. How are you doing?

Rabia: Well, thank you. I mean, so far so good. It's close to Thursday in the week, so, that's not bad.

[00:00:40] Sean: Excellent. Well, it's probably best if we just dive right in. Peacebuilding, it's one of those terms that sounds self-evident, but I'm not quite sure. So, what is peacebuilding?

[00:00:53] Rabia: So, how I would define peacebuilding, is that, how do you manage your conflicts intentions in a cordial way, you know, without killing each other? So, you know, conflicts are always going to be there. I mean, conflicts exist in any kind of relationship but how do you manage them without them turning violent? You know, how do you learn to build relationships? How do you learn to coexist and be acceptable of each other's identities, existence? Broadly is what I would see peacebuilding as,

[00:01:26] Sean: So, I guess conflict sensitivity is understanding and identifying potential areas of conflict and insecurity from your operations or your intended project, peacebuilding is maybe the flip side of that coin. So, once you've understood that, it's what are you going to do about it and how do you get on in a harmonious nonconfrontational way?

[00:01:47] Rabia: Yes. And I think conflict sensitivity very much, also sits within peacebuilding. So, if you are doing a peacebuilding project, for example, or a program, then there's always this possibility that the interventions that they're doing, they can have negative consequences.

So, how do you ensure that? So, just to give you an example, we were working on you can broadly say women's empowerment programme in Afghanistan and on one side, you really feel proud when you see that some of the women from the community that you have worked with, they're very confidently able to sit in a dialogue or a discussion and challenge the speaker’s viewpoint and express themselves so confidently. But the problematic side to it is that if that, person who, who they're challenging happens to be a cleric or, or a local religious leader, then that can get into a confrontational mode and if that is being recorded, and if that ever goes viral, then you are actually, putting that, women or young girls' life, under threat.

So, that, that happened in one of our discussions and the partner staff had to quickly intervene and calm that girl down, but it also made us realize that we need an added intervention working with these women. We need to also work with them that how do you get into a dialogue without it being a confrontational exchange? How do you express your point of view but more in a dialogue mode  so you're not putting yourself at risk?

[00:03:16] Sean: So I took you on a bit of a tangent. How did you get there? I mean, you're talking about a programme in Afghanistan, high risk, high threat environment, how did you go from nice background and working wherever and Afghanistan and beyond?

[00:03:31] Rabia: I started working for an INGO which focuses on peacebuilding. They were starting something in Pakistan and wanted someone to come and work on their Pakistan programme. So, I, started with the Pakistan programme and recruited a local team, built a country office and worked to expand that programme within Pakistan. But then I also had this the desire to, you know, to, to work outside of Pakistan also. So, this opportunity came for the organization to be a part of a project that was being put forward by a think tank. And they wanted a knowledge and a learning partner, and the project focused on understanding conflict sensitivity and its applicability in employment practices within construction, transportation, infrastructure sectors.

It was very much focusing on Afghanistan, but then also looked at, the bordering area. So, Iran, and Pakistan, to be the trading partners that a lot of relevant sectors we're engaging with. So, with that as an entry point, that's when I, I think in 2015 I first went to Kabul, without knowing anyone, but having contacted someone from their local partner organization. I think that's has been probably a very, very fascinating experience for me because, I mean, the challenge was that you are working in this one project, but you also have the organization and you yourself have bigger ambitions. So, you also want to grow, the portfolio of work and engagement in Afghanistan. But peacebuilding organizations always have very limited budgets, and, so you can't really start. And if you don't have, a million-pound grant given by someone to go and construct an office in Kabul and stuff, then how do you work there?

But I think the three other challenges, I think I would like to point out more. One was that, if you are working for peacebuilding and if you are coming from a peacebuilding organization, how do you navigate within that space? Do you put yourself behind very high security walls, or do you restrict yourself to a compound? But then how are you going to engage with the partner organization who's going to do the delivery? What kind of message are you giving them if you are making them come to your hotel to do all the trainings and stuff, rather than going to their offices, engaging with their staff or traveling to the project sites? How do you work on that, but then also, how are you traveling around in the city? Do you get an armoured vehicle? Do you get an escort? You are supposed to be here to build relationships. How would that look? Also, from a cost point of view, you know, that is going to be very high cost. Isn't it better that you, what I think the security sector in Afghanistan will call the soft approach, that you built relationships and networks with locals? And that means with not just with the head of the partner organization, but also the driver who's going to drive you around because he's going to be your main security provider as you're going around in a rundown Toyota all over Kabul. But how do you do that sensibly that you know where to draw the line? And that comes to my second point, that it's still a very male dominated space. So how do you conduct yourself as a woman so that you are able to build a relationship but are in some ways also able to draw lines and boundaries? And then the third bit was I was also a Pakistani and Kabul is an interesting place because you would find a lot of people who have spent a significant part of their life in Pakistan have fond memories, but because of the political dynamics there, can also have a lot of animosity towards Pakistan. So how do you manage conversations? Where do you learn to stop in conversations and not get defensive and get into arguments?

[00:07:09] Sean: There's so much to unpack there. We use the jargon of operating in complex environments and projects in high risk areas, but there you are, you are sent to Kabul on a project with a very low budget, with very minimal resources, on a woman's empowerment type project. You yourself are female and you had to operate in this quick to violence, patriarchal society, that's tough, and it's a start-up to begin with.

[00:07:38] Rabia: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:39] Sean: I mean that first day in Kabul, what was going through your mind?

Rabia: There was also a lot of excitement, you know, I'm kind of doing this, you know, because you talk about working in peacebuilding in conflict zones but if you've been working in Pakistan, at the end of the day to outsiders, Pakistan may sound scary, but I mean, if you are from Pakistan, you know, you can get by in Pakistan relatively easily. But if you're going to a different country and from your standards, which would really be a fragile context. And I think there's also a lot of excitement in some ways that you're doing something real. But I also remember that I think the first night I was sitting in my, and it was a local, guest house, and the guy also used to play loud Bollywood music at night. I was quite sure that we going to get bombed by the Taliban very soon because of this loud Bollywood music. But I was thinking about sitting there one night and as I said, that never really wanted to do a ‘job’ I didn't think I had it in me. And I remember as a child, I was really scared of also night-time. And I would, always make sure that my mother was sitting there with me till I went to sleep. And I was reflecting that, oh my God, what am I doing here on my own in this place.

[00:08:50] Sean: You are hardcore

Rabia: So how did I come here? I think you also learn a lot about yourself both professionally and personally, and I think lots of sensibilities also develop that how do you manage yourself in that environment? You know, which bit of information are you sharing with people, even though you trust those people, which bit of information you are not sharing with people, how do you make decisions? It's not like something you have a guidebook or you have to be given that this is what you need to follow, but you start, I think, developing a mental checklist of dos and don’ts, and adapting 24/7.

Sean: Again, I've taken you on a bit of a tangent. I suspect we're going to circle back to this and I've, I've got a few more questions about it. But, okay, so you had this amazing experience in Kabul and that was in 2015. What happened after that?

[00:09:46] Rabia: So, I was with that organization from 2015 to 2019, I kept on, going back to Afghanistan to work with partners on other projects. I think, stayed there also almost for a month to do this piece of research, which also turned out to be quite fascinating. Looking at how civil society is impacted in a conflict zone. And it was also an interesting experience, these three and a half years, because I ended up staying at different places. So, I've also stayed as a house guest in someone's house. I've stayed at Serena. I've stayed at another INGO's guest house and observed it from the inside as to how security is managed and how internationals and nationals, what experiences do they go through? So, it was both from a development sector, programming, peacebuilding programming point of view, a very rich experience. But also, personally. Hopefully have grown up quite a lot through those kinds of experiences and some of those people, I'm still in touch with and, you know, with a lot of kind of gratitude because I wouldn't have been able to do this if I didn't have a network or people that I knew or could call out to, if I needed any support, during my time.

[00:10:57] Sean: Fascinating. So again, just thinking the way that you really kept yourself safe was big investment in local networks, personal networks, local understanding, deep contextual understanding of where you were operating in. Because I suspect that if something went wrong, you had very limited options. There was no cavalry coming to get you.

[00:11:17] Rabia: Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you an example, PIA has a direct flight every day from Kabul to Islamabad it takes only 15 minutes. I mean, that's such a convenient way of traveling rather than going from Kabul to Dubai and then coming back to Pakistan where you have to take Emirates, but at least that's a more guaranteed flight and Kam Air only flies on, on certain days. But, uh, Pia, if it doesn't have passengers, it just doesn't want to fly that day. And it doesn't really inform you before. So, once I went to the airport in the morning and the security guard said, your flight's been cancelled. And I did not know what to do because the driver from my partner organization had dropped me at the airport and had left. So where do I go? Had to kind of convince that security guard that no, no, you need to let me go into, the building so that I can, come up with alternate arrangements and sat there literally for five, six hours. Working with one person who I found, who was able to do ticketing inside connecting with my finance operations manager in Islamabad to check for connecting flights from Dubai requesting security, again, to go out, to draw money from ATM to pay because the guy was booking my ticket could only take cash. So, you know, you had to manage and do all of that on my own.

[00:12:41] Sean: Okay. So you've spent three years and it's a great rite of passage coming out of Afghanistan. What is next for you?

Rabia: Okay. So, I also worked on Sri Lanka which was, again, a fascinating experience because at that point, Sri Lanka was just coming out of, the checkpoints in North, North East were being disbanded. So, it was that period engaged a lot with the overseas Sri Lankans. So that was what the work was all about reconciliation. So again, a fascinating environment for me. And it was always interesting because whichever of these three contexts that you went into they felt that their conflict was unprecedented, their circumstances are probably the most serious and the most gravest. And you would be like, okay, well, I've just come back from this other country. So, I think from a comparative perspective, that was a good learning, but then I guess I was a bit more ambitious. I wanted more, I wanted to experience other parts of the world. I wanted to experience bigger programs, and work along those parameters. So, then I moved to a development consulting firm where I've again, been really, really grateful that I've got the opportunity to work in east Africa. Have got the opportunity to work in Middle East, Jordan, and then, on sort of life programs, and, working on a program in Nigeria now, but then also have gotten the opportunity to work on designing of programs in contexts like Yemen, Somalia. And it was kind of a mental challenge for myself. So, I've worked for seven years in South Asia, so to speak, on peacebuilding programming, is there something that I've really learned that I can take to some of these other contexts and design programming there? How would I build relationships with people?

So for example, there was a call out in Bosnia, and it was really interesting to reach out to local partner organizations try and understanding the context, come up with ideas, test it out with them, but also over that course of that proposal development, build relationships with them because, they were the ones who would help validate your ideas, but will give you information will help you recruit people. So that has been again I can say personally, a very enriching experience.

[00:14:51] Sean: I bet. So, it's very much, almost two ends of the spectrum. One is implementation in very challenging environments. And the other is now the design of proposals of bids and really looking at the programmatic side of things. So, when operating in these high-risk complex environments how does one integrate your safety and security or dare I say, conflict sensitivity, variables or factors with the programmatic decision making? Because sometimes that might be quite difficult.

[00:15:24] Rabia: Yeah. Had to do that in Pakistan quite a lot, because over the course of the period that I was working on in Pakistan, the operating environment changed quite a bit. It became very restrictive for foreign funded, INGOs, but particularly for peacebuilding organizations, because it did not sit very well with the state stance at that point or how they wanted to project Pakistan. If you are authorizing a peacebuilding organization to work there, then you're basically saying that Pakistan is a conflict area. So that was a very challenging, so it was really interesting because then you start thinking about operationalizing some of these things. So, you may start off by using the language of peacebuilding, but by the end, your beneficiaries become communities only. That's how you are talking about them. The language that you're using in your trainings, in any kind of publications or any kind of external communication. Your language gets toned down quite a bit. It becomes a lot more development language. You become very, very conscious of which words you are using, you become conscious of how your team is operating. So, for example, is it better to put your partner organization forward, in the sense that they are the face when delivering and your organization's logo, donors logo, all of that are nowhere to be seen.

[00:16:47] Rabia: Your team members are very much integrated in the partner organizations team, and that's how they engage with the audience that you're working with. So it's all these little, little things that you start thinking about. You know what the objective of the program is, you know, what you're trying to achieve, but how would you operationalize that? Similarly, that was also what we were doing in Afghanistan. How would you work with local government there? Your program can only be implemented if you have informed the local government, but they expect some things from you.

So how will the budget be shared with them? They would come to your trainings. So, you will have to accept that, but I mean, they would want to eat, you know, food is a very, very, very strong kind of component in all of the trainings that happen. So, you would have to accept that, and not get defensive about those things, but also draw the line that you will also not be giving any money or, bribery, to anyone to implement your projects. When you practically start thinking about, okay, so how would we do this while trying to achieve your objectives while also keeping your team's safety in mind, your beneficiaries safety in mind, your partner safety in mind, but also talking to people in a language that they would understand. If you're going to go start using all of this jargon to your communities or start picking up topics. If you want to work on peacebuilding, what is that one issue that is important for that community? How do you use that as an anchor to bring people together, to get them talking?

To me, the issue is of less relevance, but it's the process, which is very, very important, at least for me in peacebuilding programming.

[00:18:32] Sean: May I ask you a question at that programmatic design thinking level, if you're thinking about human resources and the limited resources that you have, and you have all of these complexities and, you know, pressure to, to show outputs and outcomes, is there perhaps a reliance in the industry on individuals with high risk tolerances? Those men and women who are willing to be put centre of Kabul by themselves, without any, army at their back.

Rabia: I would say that you probably are only going to succeed if you are able to find good human resource locally. Yes, you would have these international experts who can fly in and out. But there's this whole debate about that too, you know. How much is that needed? And people flying in and out, how much can they understand the context if they have not lived in some of these contexts or, haven't spent a great deal of time? So, for me, the international resource is important, but far more important is the local, team, local people, who you would be working with because at the end of the day, they are going to be your frontline representatives. They are going to go out there in the field and in the communities where probably the risk is far higher. And you, as an international can still put yourself in some kind of a guarded compound in the development capital or, in relatively bigger area, in that context.

[00:20:04] Rabia: But it's those people who cannot go with an army to deliver on some of these sensitive, issues, within that context. So, I think you need to a, be very respectful of those people's opinion. Unfortunately, the power dynamics come into play, particularly, I think it's more to do with maybe the younger, people within this working space. Thinking from also your counterpart, on the local end, who would just think that just because you are coming from outside, a Western country, at the start of the relationship, they will not tell you that what you're saying doesn't make sense. It'll take that while to, to say that. You have to make that effort, and have that humility to realize that they at the end of the day, may not know all those development or peace building theories but, they know the reality much, much better than you. So, you need to create that environment for them to be able to voice that or, share that, give that input.

Sean: Sorry, while you're speaking, I couldn't help but think about the recent fall of Kabul and the evacuation and all of that. I've got nothing to base this on, but I wonder how many organizations operating there had evacuation plans for local nationals operating in the field, and pragmatically in what you're talking about I have to agree with you, it makes absolute sense, but with human nature, I wonder sometimes if someone sitting in London or Geneva or, or Washington planning this out, it's quite easy to forget about that frontline worker who's put themselves at risk and that, yes, might know the local context, but is also still at risk. And sometimes will need to be evacuated just as any blonde-haired, blue-eyed person would need to be evacuated.

[00:21:54] Rabia: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you are absolutely right. I remember this one conversation I had with this, he was a project officer in one of the partner organizations that we were working with, and he had to accompany foreigner to, I think they were going to another city to conduct some interviews and he was going to be the interpreter. And he said to me that, they send us off and we go with these people, but it's our neck on the line. the community sees us with them. If these people get kidnapped, the foreigner would be saved because they are, another term that we started jokingly used in Kabul, they're a valuable commodity and, governments would jump in to save them, but who would think about us? No one, no one would pay ransom for us. No one would even care if we unfortunately died in the whole process. Also, from what I've heard, because I wasn't working in Afghanistan at that time, when the like last year or earlier this year, but I think from what I've heard, a lot of local organizations, even heads of organizations, local charities who did not have foreign nationalities, they struggled, they went into hiding. They were really struggling to get out. And then they also couldn't get out only on their own. They had families. The evacuation plan needed to take care of all of them, not just one person. So yes, unfortunately, you forget about that. But if it's also an interesting observation, which in my time in Kabul that that only didn't happen, now at the time of evacuation, but that's something that also happens on a daily basis particularly I think more so in INGOs there than, than NGOs that, the way the international staff is treated and the national staff is treated, in terms of security. I think it sometimes causes a bit of apprehension within the local staff that, we are going out in the field, and, the internationals, while they are put in compounds and stuff. So why is that? Particularly when every morning your day starts with the security briefing. So, you're constantly reminded that there's the security challenge here, so they are also. So why should we be going out also and putting our lives at risk?

[00:24:13] Sean: Valid question, valid question. so it's obviously an unconscious bias. I don't necessarily think it's conscious, but it's a bias nonetheless.

[00:24:22] Rabia: yeah.

[00:24:23] Sean: Do you feel that it's institutionalized in the industry?

Rabia: I think yes, in some ways, because, in addition to the development sector or the peacebuilding sector, there's also the security sector, which is working there. You know, the, the security agencies, which are providing security, so it kind of gets institutionalized through that.

It also kind of depended on who organizations get as their security managers or their security advisors. So, if that person is coming from an ex-military background from some other country or an ex-mercenary in some cases, then he would bring on that lens while if that same position was being held by someone who has worked in providing security arrangement and stuff but doesn't come from that background, his approach would be totally different.

[00:25:14] Sean: Interesting.

[00:25:14] Rabia: Then you have all, all these. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have all these security companies which are there to provide these services and I mean, I'm not saying that they also do it deliberately but they are used to looking at things from a particular lens so everything gets that whole mentality or thinking gets reproduced again and again. And, I mean, I remember talking to someone who was working in a policing project for a large donor organization, and he was very frustrated. He's like, I am supposed to build relationships with people, and do work on maybe community policing in some aspects. I am not allowed to go out of this compound. Some of my counterparts have never met their Afghan counterpart because of security restrictions are always supposed to do this.

[00:26:03] Sean: Absolutely. So, that's a really interesting point and, and a great point because the industry does rely, dare I say, mostly middle-aged white males from Western military backgrounds to implement their security systems. And a lot of it is presumably because they have the knowledge of systems and processes but really from that, understanding and, awareness, what you would suggest is someone from an NGO background or a local national would have a better understanding and would be perhaps be better at it if they were given the tools and the knowledge to do the job properly as opposed to parachuting someone in.

[00:26:45] Rabia: Yes. I'm not saying that it’s the security guys in country, be they from the security agencies or local people, things are just a lot more complicated in these contexts than you would think from outside.

So, for example, in Afghanistan or in Kabul, yes, the attacks from non-state actors are only one of the threats that you are up against. The bigger problem, at least in my opinion was the everyday problem was criminality element of it, which was very much, say had relationships with also the state actors. It was the kidnapping for ransom purposes which was a bigger threat I think to, to internationals. And, you know, you get sold from one group to another group and government, and unfortunately may also have been involved, or some government actors. So, you know, the point being that it is very complicated, the situation it's just not as straightforward as just these particular Islamist groups or, you know, that's what kind of is understood from outside. But the situation is far more complicated in these contexts.

[00:27:55] Sean: And fast moving and dynamic and changing.  

[00:27:57] Rabia: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Your situation. I mean, in the morning you can start off with a plan, but then you realize, okay, so this is changing. This is happening probably best not to go to a meeting in that part of the city. So, let's cancel that meeting and go back to your hotel.

[00:28:14] Sean: Yeah, no, I bet. Okay. So, I mean, we could spend hours talking about this and, you know, so what's next? How does the industry improve? Thinking about on one hand, the programmatic conflict and security, but also the HR, security of their staff as well. Is it improving? What needs to happen?

[00:28:37] Rabia: I think kind of difficult to say if it's improving, because the whole aid architecture is, is also changing with some donors, for example, focusing more on hardcore kind of threats, rather than using the soft power, but the kind of programming, that the suppliers, if we can call them, to do so, that is unfortunately, moving away from what we would've called peacebuilding programming, which is more time intensive, which requires a lot of patience from donors. But that is not happening. This whole we need to achieve results and show results and all of that, that also, is driving a bit of craziness in some ways within this sector. So, it's a lot of things coming together, which may mean that things are not really improving, but they may get more and more complex.

Sean: And is there an awareness of the duty of care towards their own staff? Or, if there is, is it lip service or is there actually other tangible steps and what needs to be done?

Rabia: I think the duty of care there is because that way I think the donors are putting a lot more emphasis on it. You do have to invest quite a lot in that in your proposals and stuff. Also show that there is a duty of care towards your staff, but it also all comes down to resources. In some ways, they would require resources. How staff traveling in country, where are they staying? All little, little things, things matter. If you would need your staff to undergo training, I mean, these security trainings are also not cheap. They're expensive. So how, can local organizations do that? If they're not provided that as a part of a, a bigger consortium that they end up, engaging with. So, economics, I think has, has a lot to do with it and then of course the whole pressure to deliver, and meet your outcomes and your objectives because the payment is also by results and everything. So, they may be a lot more awareness, but I think the way the industry functions in reality compromises have to be made.

[00:30:53] Sean: Understandable, and tough choices. Rabia, thank you so much for your time. I've really enjoyed this conversation, as with many of these chats, I get to the end, and I have way more questions than I started with.

[00:31:06] Rabia: Yeah.

[00:31:06] Sean: I could spend hours picking your brain. It's just been fascinating. And I suspect that we'll have several conversations again in the future. but thank you so much for your time. I, I really appreciate it.

[00:31:16] Rabia: Thank you very much.